BAKU, Azerbaijan, November 9. The
Azerbaijani Army launched a counter-offensive operation, later
called the “Iron Fist”, on September 27, 2020, in response to the
large-scale provocation of the Armenian armed forces along the
frontline.
The 44-day second Karabakh war ended with the liberation of
Azerbaijan’s territories from nearly 30-year Armenian occupation
and the restoration of territorial integrity.
On November 6, President of the Republic of Azerbaijan Ilham
Aliyev was interviewed by BBC News.
Trend presents the
interview.
-President Aliyev, thank you for your time for speaking
to us on BBC News. Do you intend to fight for every square inch of
Nagorno-Karabakh and the surrounding seven
territories?
-Our position was very clear from the very beginning. We are
ready and are still ready to stop any time when the Armenian side
will commit itself to the liberation of the occupied territories. I
am saying this from the very beginning of the war that if the
Armenian prime minister publicly will make a commitment that they
will liberate the occupied territories we will stop. But so far
it’s already forty days and there is no sign of him to say
this.
-So, that means you will be fighting to the
finish.
-We will fight until the end if Armenia does not make a
commitment that they will withdraw from occupied territories. I
think Armenia is making a big mistake because if they listened to
us from the very beginning the war would have stopped a long time
ago, and we would have been already on the negotiation table.
-But with respect Mr. President, you are delivering an
ultimatum. You are saying they have to agree to give up all of this
territory, and then there can be talks. That’s a very big
precondition for talks.
-No, not exactly, because what I am saying is based on the basic
principles and the basic principles are very clear with respect to
the liberation of the territories surrounding Nagorno-Karabakh. It
is a very clear message to Armenia and unfortunately, Armenia did
not agree to the basic principles which have been elaborated by the
Minsk Group co-chairs and the previous Armenian leadership. These
basic principles say that in the first stage they have to liberate
five occupied territories, at the second stage-two. But four out of
the five have already been liberated. Therefore, if they do it when
they will liberate part of Aghdam, when they will liberate Kalbajar
and Lachin, we will stop.
-So, just to be clear, President, because these
locations are not familiar to our international audience. Are you
saying that if the Armenian leadership agrees to vacate the
territories outside of Nagorno-Karabakh you will stop, you will not
fight on?
-Exactly. That is the position which I articulated many times,
at the same time, this is not the whole issue on the negotiation
table. Of course, after that, we will work on the return of
Azerbaijani refugees to Nagorno-Karabakh. Because before the war in
the 1990s, there have been 40,000 Azerbaijanis living in
Nagorno-Karabakh, and the percentage of the Azerbaijani population
was 25 percent. So, they expelled them all, and after that,
committed ethnic cleansing, and then, announced independence.
-But the fear is, that if you take control of
Nagorno-Karabakh by force, that you may do exactly the same. There
are very strong fears being expressed by Armenia that there will be
the ethnic cleansing of their people.
-These are groundless accusations. First, if Armenia is really
concerned about that, why they do not agree to the basic
principles? Because if the basic principles are confirmed, and
Armenia will make a commitment which I already demand from them for
many times, then everything will stop.
-So, you are not asking them to withdraw from
Nagorno-Karabakh. You are asking only for the territories
alongside.
-We ask and we demand the implementation of UN Security Council
resolutions which were adopted back in 1993, which demanded the
immediate, complete, and unconditional withdrawal of Armenian
troops from the occupied territories. With respect to the Armenian
population of Nagorno-Karabakh, they will continue to live there.
They are our citizens, and I on many occasions expressed this
position.
-Well, with respect President Aliyev, you are saying
that the Armenians will consider to live there as your citizens.
You have very recently said and I am quoting you here: “If they do
not leave we will chase them like dogs.” Now, that’s hardly the
kind of statement that would make people feel safe.
-No. Please be accurate with my statements. What I said, I meant
those who continue to occupy our territories, I meant Armenian
military-political leadership, I meant the so-called “authorities
of Nagorno-Karabakh”, this criminal junta which has already, by the
way, run away. And I got information that the so-called “leader of
Nagorno-Karabakh” is already in Yerevan. So, I meant them, I didn’t
mean Armenian people.
-So, are you saying that you will give an absolute
guarantee that there will be no ethnic cleansing of Armenian
citizens in Nagorno-Karabakh?
-Yes. We are not Armenians. They committed ethnic cleansing
against us. They expelled all Azerbaijanis from Nagorno-Karabakh
and seven surrounding districts. Thus, we have one million refugees
as a result of the ethnic cleansing policy of Armenia. But we will
not behave the same way, we will not take revenge. I said many
times even when they bombed Ganja, when they bombed Barda, when
they bombed other cities and killed 92 people, civilians, I said we
will take revenge on the battlefield. Therefore, taking into
account, this official position and the fact that there are
thousands of Armenians who live in Azerbaijan, and nobody is
ethnically cleansing them, why should we do it there?
-Well, with regard to the Armenians who are living here
in Azerbaijan, we have been told that many live in fear that they
change their surnames because they do not want to be identified
openly as Armenians. So, how can Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh have
confidence that they will be safe?
-No. This is the wrong information.
-Well, it’s coming from people who are
here.
-Well, maybe somebody got married and changed the name that’s a
usual practice here. But no. There are many Armenians who live here
and we know that they are Armenians. And by the way, I can tell
you, not many people know that the sister of the former Armenian
defense minister Arutunyan lives in Azerbaijan. If you would like
we can organize the meeting with her. Therefore, this is not
actually fear, this is Armenian propaganda.
-But, if this is propaganda President Aliyev, there is
clearly propaganda on both sides. There is institutionalized
messaging against the Armenians which takes place here as part of
the state dialogue. People have been primed to have hatred for the
other side. Are you actually expecting them to be able to
co-exist?
-Why they can co-exist in other parts of the world? Do you know
that there are villages in neighboring Georgia, where Armenians and
Azerbaijanis live together in the same village? They live together
in Russia, they live together in Ukraine, they live together in
Azerbaijan, in many other parts of the world. And if you observe
the situation in the world now, apart from some pro-Armenian
rallies in the West, the situation between Armenians and
Azerbaijanis is very calm and quiet. Why can they live there and
cannot live here?
-Do you honestly expect a single Armenian to stay and
remain in Nagorno-Karabakh if you take control, and live under the
rule of Azerbaijan?
-I think it is possible, because I, as a President, say today
and said many times that we want to live side by side. And if we
did not want to live side by side why should I say that? Today, as
you know, the Azerbaijani Army is winning the battle. Today, we
liberate one city after another, one village after another. And in
principle, anyone in Azerbaijan can say, look, they committed
genocide in Khojaly, they expelled Azerbaijanis from their native
lands, they destroyed all our cities and villages.
-Armenians, of course, also claim that they were
expelled, and they were the victims of massacres over the
years?
-From where have they been expelled? From where? They have not
been expelled. We did not commit ethnic cleansing against
Armenians. No. Armenians live in Azerbaijan. They expelled us not
only from Nagorno-Karabakh but from seven districts on the
administrative border of Nagorno-Karabakh where the Armenian
population has never lived. They changed the names of the cities,
of the villages.
-Well talking about religion President Aliyev, we have
had an attack in Armenia. A church, a cathedral
attacked.
-That was not in Armenia.
-We have had an attack in Nagorno-Karabakh, I beg your
pardon, a church which was shelled twice on the same day. Now, you
have said that possibly it was a mistake, you have said you will
carry out an investigation. What’s the result of the
investigation?
-In order to investigate it, we have to be there to investigate.
I said many times, either it was a mistake of our artillery or it
was a deliberate provocation by Armenians themselves.
-So, they shelled their own church?
-Exactly.
-They, of course, deny this.
-Of course, they deny, they deny everything. They denied that
they hit Ganja with ballistic missiles from the territory of
Armenia. Armenian prime minister said that it is false information.
Though your country, United States, France, Russia can easily
detect from where the ballistic missile was launched.
-But with regards to the church…
-With regards to the church, I said, either it was a mistake or
they did it deliberately, because the images of that church which I
have seen, show that it is very minor damage. And this damage can
be repaired within a maximum of two weeks. This is first. Second,
you are here in Baku, probably you have seen Armenian church in the
city center which we restored and we keep thousands of Armenian
books. If we are destroying churches as Armenians say, why didn’t
we destroy it here in Baku?
-But can you say categorically that your forces did not
attack the church?
-I say categorically that many times, either it was a mistake
or…
-So, you may have done it.
-Who you? Who do you mean by saying you?
-Your forces may have done it.
-It could have been by mistake only. Because there was no
military target. The church was not among the military targets. We
had military targets in Stepanakert, which is the city called
Khankandi in Azerbaijani. We had military targets in Shusha and we
hit those military targets because they attacked us. So, probably
that was a mistake.
-But could you have made a mistake twice in the same
day? It was hit twice?
-Why not? Have you seen the images of Azerbaijani mosques on the
occupied territories? They are all destroyed. They keep pigs in our
mosques. And the recent video footage of the mosque in Zangilan
which was liberated shows that they kept pigs there.
-But you have made a point, President Aliyev, of talking
about the military superiority of your army. You have 100 thousand
men. You have the most sophisticated weapons that can be bought
from Israel, from Türkiye, particularly the Turkish drones. So,
with all of that expertise at your disposal, could there be two
mistaken episodes of shelling a church?
-Absolutely, there could be. Because we need to be there in
order to investigate. And when we will be there we will repair it.
We will restore it. You will see. When we go back to Shusha we will
restore it.
-But doesn’t that mean if these weapons can be so
precise and mistakes can be made so easily that you shouldn’t be
using them in civilian areas.
-We are not using in civilian areas. We are using them in order
to destroy military infrastructure.
-With respect, President Aliyev…
-The city of Khankandi was full of military objects. The city of
Shusha was full of military objects. We do not attack civilians
unlike them. They attacked Ganja with ballistic missiles,
deliberately destroying the civilian compound.
-Well, let me tell you, President Aliyev, for our own
BBC colleagues have seen that this is not hearsay, this is what was
filmed, this was what experienced by BBC colleagues. They were in
Stepanakert, in Nagorno-Karabakh on the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd of
October. They witnessed random shelling of the town, including at
an Emergency Service Center, an apartment block destroyed. As
people tried to flee there was a drone overhead. Shortly afterwards
more shelling nearby. They characterized it as indiscriminate
shelling of a town without clear military targets. Now, this is not
hearsay, this was witnessed and filmed by the BBC.
-I doubt this witnessing. I doubt it.
-Well, they were there President Aliyev.
-So what, they were there. It doesn’t mean anything. That can be
fake news. We had military…
-And why would that be fake news? Why would any
journalist go in there to sight to broadcast fake
news?
-Because of the biased approach to the conflict. Because of this
black propaganda against Azerbaijan in international media.
-So you cannot be guilty of any wrong. Everything is
false news.
-Absolutely. It is false news. We closely watch the western
media and during these 40 days, I had maybe almost 30 interviews.
All of them were very aggressive and as if it was not an interview,
as if it was a kind of accusation. Nothing is happening on the
Armenian side? Nobody is asking Pashinyan why he hits with
ballistic missile Ganja. Why he killed 92 people, why they attack a
funeral in Tartar, why they use Smerch with cluster bombs to attack
Barda, killing 21 persons, and injuring 70. No one asks him, where
does he get weapons? Only attack on us. Only demonizing Azerbaijan
from international media. So, that’s why what BBC, your colleagues,
so-called witnessed there, I do not believe that.
-Well, in fact, they filmed it, President Aliyev. But of
course, it is important to say that there has been killing of
civilians on both sides. There has been indiscriminate shelling on
both sides. We have witnessed here ourselves the aftermath of the
attack in Ganja and which ballistic missile was used. So there is
no doubt that there have been casualties on this side as
well.
-Thank you for that.
-But equally, when you mention cluster munitions there
is evidence that you have used cluster munitions in civilian areas,
in the streets of Stepanakert, documented extensively by Human
Rights Watch, photographs, videos, testimony from witnesses and
they actually had the opportunity to go to the scene. Now, why are
you using cluster munitions which can be so imprecise in a civilian
area?
-We are not using them. This is another fake news. It is Armenia
who uses the cluster bombs.
-So everything is fake news.
-Of course. Why not? We are facing this fake news for decades.
Do you know how many fake news were published in the British press
about Azerbaijan? Thousands.
-But you admit President Aliyev you are fighting a war.
You are making advances. But then you are telling us on the other
hand you are not using these weapons.
-No, we are not, because we are fighting on the battlefield. We
are fighting against the Armenian army. We are not fighting against
civilians. No sense in that, because our task is to liberate the
territories. And we liberate one village, one city after another.
And we do not use cluster bombs. We don’t need it. We have enough
other…
-So, the evidence uncovered by Human Rights Watch is
fake also.
-Of course, because Human Rights Watch due to a very biased
approach to Azerbaijan, due to the fact they did not notice any
wrongdoing in Armenia even when journalists are dying in prison,
even when the main opposition leader is in prison. They don’t
report on that. Only against us. Therefore, we stopped cooperation
with Human Rights Watch some 5-6 years ago, and only now, when this
war started, we invited them to come and see, because we wanted
them to testify, because there was no way for them to say no.
That’s why we invited them. So, this organization is not credible
in Azerbaijan.
-May I ask President Aliyev how many civilians have been
killed on this side now? What is the death toll?
-92 civilians were killed, 405 were wounded, almost 3000 houses
either demolished or seriously damaged by the Pashinyan regime. So,
this is a fact. And you can verify it when you go there and
see.
-We would like to be able to see the frontline for
ourselves and during our last trip here we were prevented from
traveling independently. Can you give us an assurance that we would
be able to go there this time?
-Yes, I think it is possible, but security measures must be
taken in order to protect you. But I think it is possible. It is
regulated by the general situation, by the martial law in
Azerbaijan. Therefore, it must be in line with these temporary
regulations.
-So we can’t have free movement at the
frontline.
What do you mean, on the frontline? Going where the battle
is?
-Yes.
There have been journalists there. There have been from…
-But not moving independently.
-What do you mean by saying, “independently”?
-Moving independently without minders from the
government. Moving at their own discretion, which is what we do in
other conflicts. We decide where we wish to go. We make our own
choices we go there, we film.
-I am not sure about that. I think that must be checked with our
authorities whether there is a possibility or not. Any company
which foreign journalists have, only have one purpose, to protect
them and to advise them where they can go and where they cannot go.
But there is nothing to hide. You can see our destroyed villages.
You have been to Ganja, probably you could go to Barda also.
Therefore, we have nothing to hide. We are fighting on our own
land. Armenian army is on our land. They are aggressors. We have
been the victims of aggression, but today we payback. Today we show
them their place, and we will move them until the end, as I said if
they do not liberate voluntarily the remaining part of the
territories.
-That sounds like a very chilling message to Armenian
civilians.
-No. Why? We already talked about Armenian civilians. We have
nothing wrong in communications with them. I said many times and I
think what I say. I keep the words that after we liberate the
territory from these criminal gangs which occupied our territory,
Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh will live much better. They will have
more salaries because the salaries in Azerbaijan are higher. More
pensions, because pensions in Azerbaijan is three times higher than
in Armenia. They will have all the social protection. We will
invest in those areas largely. They will get rid of poverty.
-Will they have the full range of human rights which
people here in Azerbaijan do not have? Will they have fully free
media? Will they have an opposition that’s allowed to raise its
voice. Will they be allowed to have the things that people here in
Azerbaijan do not have?
-You think they do not have it? Why do you think that people in
Azerbaijan do not have free media and opposition?
-Because this is what I am told by independent sources
in this country.
-Which independent sources?
-Many independent sources.
-Tell me which.
-I certainly couldn’t name sources.
-Oh, if you couldn’t name that means you are just inventing the
stories.
-So, you are saying that the media is not under state
control.
-Not at all.
-And there is a vibrant free opposition
media.
-Of Course.
-Where do I see this?
-You can see it on the internet. You can see it everywhere.
– But not in newspapers.
-Why? You can see it in the newspapers. Whom do you call
opposition here? Can I ask you?
-Well, is there allowed to be an opposition
here?
-Yes, it is allowed of course.
-I mean NGOs are the subject of the crackdown,
journalists are the subject of the crackdown.
-Not at all.
-Critics are in jail.
-No, not at all.
-None of this is true.
-Absolutely fake, absolutely. We have free media, we have free
internet. Now, due to martial law, we have some restrictions but
before there have been no restrictions. The number of internet
users in Azerbaijan is more than 80 percent. Can you imagine the
restriction of media in a country where the internet is free, there
is no censorship, and there are 80 percent of internet users? We
have millions of people on Facebook. How can you say that we don’t
have free media? This is again, a biased approach. This is an
attempt to create a perception in the Western audiences about
Azerbaijan. We have opposition, we have NGOs, we have free
political activity, we have free media, we have freedom of speech.
But if you raise this question, can I ask you also one? How do you
assess what happened to Mr. Assange? Isn’t it the reflection of
free media in your country?
-We are not here to discuss my country.
-No, let’s discuss. Let’s discuss.
-No, President Aliyev.
-In order to accuse me saying that Armenians will not have free
media here, let’s talk about Assange. How many years, sorry, how
many years he spent in the Ecuadorian embassy, and for what? And
where is he now? For the journalistic activity, you kept that
person hostage actually killing him morally and physically. You did
it, not us. And now he is in prison. So you have no moral right to
talk about free media when you do these things.
-Returning to the conflict…
-Yes, better return to the conflict, because this is not what
you like. You like only to accuse, only to attack. But look at the
mirror. I told many times. Before coming and lecturing us and in
your question accusing me. It’s not a question, it’s an accusation.
You talk like a prosecutor. Why? If you are so democratic and so
objective why do you keep Assange in prison? For what? You keep him
in prison because of his journalistic activity.
-I am not keeping him in prison President
Aliyev.
-You don’t like this.
-It’s not a question you don’t like this.
– You are not used to this.
-It is not the subject of our interview.
-Because you are used only to attack.
-It is not the subject of our interview.
It is not the subject of your interview, but you raise it.
-You raised it.
-No. You raised it.
-You raised the case of Assange.
-You said if you don’t have free media in your country how
Armenians can live without opposition? That was your
accusation.
-You have answered the question, President Aliyev. Could
I ask you to go back to the conflict? As you say, forty days and
counting. How long do you expect this to continue? Is this going to
be a battle through the winter?
-Nobody knows. Again, coming back to the beginning of our
conversation, if Pashinyan tells today that yes, I accept basic
principles and I will liberate part of Aghdam, Kalbajar, and Lachin
in one week, or in two weeks, we will stop immediately.
-But he doesn’t need to give you a guarantee for
liberating the rest of Nagorno-Karabakh. You are speaking about the
territories on the outside. I just want to be very clear to
understand your position.
-Yes, that’s the basic principles. On the basic principles, we
have a very clear picture. The liberation of seven districts, then
return of Azerbaijani IDPs, then return of Azerbaijani people,
refugees to Nagorno-Karabakh.
-So he has to give you Nagorno-Karabakh
also.
-He has to allow Azerbaijanis to go back there. To go back to
Shusha.
-So you don’t need to be in control of
Nagorno-Karabakh.
-Well, what do you mean by the “control”?
-Do you need to take physical control of
Nagorno-Karabakh and remove the Nagorno-Karabakh defense forces,
remove any Armenian official presence, or are you saying that you
will be satisfied if your civilians are allowed to
return?
-In the basic principles which Armenia did not accept, and
actually, they are not valid because Armenia did not accept them,
in the basic principles there is a provision that Azerbaijanis will
return there and they will be living there in peace, in security,
with security guarantees. We did not go too far in the negotiation
process in order to specify what kind of governance will be there.
Our position is there must be a certain level of self-governance,
like municipal governance or cultural autonomy for Armenians. But
we didn’t go too far. And if Pashinyan did what I ask from the very
beginning when we liberated Fuzuli, then the war would have
stopped, and we would have talked now about how to move on the
negotiation table. But he doesn’t make this commitment. Therefore,
if it continues like that we will continue. There is no other way.
We will go until the end before we restore the territorial
integrity of the country, which is recognized by the whole
world.
-So, President Aliyev, you have made significant
advances already and taking territory alongside Nagorno-Karabakh.
How soon do you plan to start sending your civilians
back?
-First, we will need to evaluate the damage caused by the
Armenian state against Azerbaijan and against the property of our
citizens. Because in the liberated territories almost everything is
destroyed. I said many times that in the big city of Fuzuli, where
ten thousands of people live we could not find any building in
order to put a flag on. So, we raised it on a derrick. Therefore,
first, we will evaluate the damage, we will invite international
experts in order to evaluate the damage which was caused to our
ecology, to our infrastructure, to our civilians who lost their
houses and to our state, to our historical heritage, because all
the mosques were destroyed, all the museums were destroyed. This is
first. And after that, of course, there will be lawsuits, lawsuits
against the Armenian state, and we are already preparing for that.
Second, we will need to create at least initial conditions for
people to live there. We need to provide construction materials we
need to invest in infrastructure.
-So, do you think, it is a matter of years
realistically?
-You know, we have already resettled 300 thousand refugees and
IDPs during all these times of occupation. And the last years were
the most impressive because only this year we are resettling seven
thousand families of refugees. So, we can, I think manage to
resettle from 7 to 10 thousand families a year, but of course, for
that, we need to have the infrastructure. We do it in Baku where
everything is ready. But in those areas where everything is
destroyed we need power stations, we need roads we need a water
supply. So, all that will take time. I don’t know how long it will
take but we will try to do everything to do it in a maximum
shortest period.
-One or two final quick questions President Aliyev, if I
may?
You have huge support from Türkiye which is a very
strong ally of Azerbaijan. How often do you speak to President
Erdogan?
-Very often, especially now several times a week.
-And daily?
-Not daily, but if necessary, may be several times a day. We are
brothers, we are friends, and you say huge support, you are right,
but I want to specify, this is political support and moral support.
Nothing more than that.
-Are there Turkish pilots here, piloting the drones that
are being used?
-No. no.
-So they are being used by your forces?
-Yes. Everything is used by our forces, not only Turkish drones
but Israeli drones and Russian military equipment and military
equipment from other countries which we purchase and which we pay
for, unlike Armenia which gets it free of charge. Everything is
done by us.
-Do you foresee a day when you might want Turkish direct
military involvement? We have seen that Armenia has already gone to
Russia, and said ‘what are you prepared to do?’ Do you see a day
when you would be asking Türkiye to become more
involved?
-I don’t want to look too far ahead, because it will depend on
the situation on the battlefield. It will depend on Armenia’s
behavior, and on other countries’ behavior. Because on many
occasions I said that we are against the internationalization of
the conflict, we asked all the countries, neighboring countries,
and not neighboring countries to stay away from this conflict. We
are fighting on our land, internationally recognized. So, this is
our position. And I think that what is happening now will continue.
So there will be no need for any kind of military involvement of
Türkiye. But, with Türkiye, many years ago, we signed the document
which provides also military support in case of aggression. So,
with Türkiye, we have more or less the same format legal basis like
Armenia and Russia has. So, if Azerbaijan will face aggression and
if Azerbaijan will see that the Turkish military support is needed,
then we will consider this option.
-I’m going to beg your assistance just for two more
questions, President Aliyev, if I may.
What would you say to those who argue and I’m sure
you’ve heard this argument being made that one of the reasons why
the conflict has reignited now and why you are pursuing such a
strong advance is because of this very strong backing from Türkiye
that this really has been the clincher for you.
-No, not at all. And by the way, where is this Turkish military
involvement? Who can verify that, who have seen any Turkish
soldiers?
-Not involvement on the ground, but the strong political
support the constant statements, the very strong backing from a
very strong regional power. Has that not been a factor in
this?
-Yes. This is a factor, but this factor became very important
after the conflict started. Because if you follow the chronology of
the conflict, so, this statement started hours after Armenia
attacked us and we pushed back. But Turkish political support to
Azerbaijan has always been here. It is not just like it happened
all of a sudden. It has always been like that. Why the conflict
started? I can tell you because Armenia wanted to disrupt
negotiations. They launched an attack on us on 12 July, on the
state border, and they entered our territory, we had to push back.
And that clash lasted four days. And we stopped after we pushed
them back from Azerbaijan and we did not cross the state border.
Then in the middle of August, they sent a sabotage group, which
crossed the line of contact, and the head of that group was
detained, he confessed that they were planning terror acts against
civilians. And then they started to shell our cities on the 27th of
September, and we had the first victims in the early hours, maybe
early minutes among civilians and among our military servicemen.
They shelled us with heavy artillery. So, that’s how it
started.
-President, forgive me because I know you wish to tell
us the history. You mentioned the loss of military servicemen. Why
is it that you are not releasing figures for your military losses
are you concerned that support might wane if people knew how many
young men are being killed in this war?
No, not at all. First, we don’t have many. If you how to say,
look at the scale of the war, and the fact that we had to break
those engineering constructions and all those positions which
Armenians built for 30 years our losses are minimal losses. Of
course, we cannot talk like that because every life of the human
being is priceless. But we have much less losses than Armenians
because our military capability is much better. And we have modern
weapons which allow us to have minimum losses particularly those
drones. Because without those drones all those tanks and guns would
have killed so many people. So, it is not a reason because we think
we will not have public support. On the contrary, those people who
live there, close relatives, their sons, their brothers, they ask
us not to stop. Can you imagine? I receive thousands of letters
every day, thousands of letters, and in no one of those letters, I
saw that, stop. No. They say I lost my son, I lost my brother, I
lost my husband. Please go until the end. Please go until the end.
Because our people have lived in this situation for almost thirty
years.
-But that almost sounds President Aliyev like you have
nowhere out of this warlike you must fight to recover every last
inch.
-Yes, that’s what I am saying. But at the same time, I said from
the very beginning that if Pashinyan, him personally, not his
foreign minister, him personally, says Armenia withdraws its troops
from Aghdam, from Kalbajar, from Lachin, the three remaining
regions which they have to liberate and give us a timetable, we
will stop immediately. We don’t want to continue this war. We don’t
want to. We want to stop, and what I am saying now I was saying
from the very beginning, and people who know me, they know that I
am a person of my word. What I say, I do. If Pashinyan tells that
today, I promise you that we will stop immediately, but he doesn’t
do it. He doesn’t do it. He wants to regain back. He wants to use
these ceasefire opportunities to regroup his forces, to mobilize
more people. He is now as you said sent a letter to President Putin
for military assistance. Thus, admitting his defeat, and if he
admits his defeat why he cannot say that he will liberate the
territories. These territories do not belong to Armenia. These are
our lands. They have to give them back to us. If they don’t do it,
as I said, we will go until the end. No way to stop.
-Do you know how many civilians have been killed inside
Nagorno-Karabakh by the activities of your forces?
-No, we don’t know. We heard the official information from the
Armenian defense ministry. We do not believe this official
information.
-They say, 45 civilians.
-Yes. I know. 45 or 47. We don’t know. I cannot say anything
which I don’t know. But I think that it is much exaggerated,
because we did not attack their villages, we did not attack their
cities. We only attacked
-With respect, President Aliyev, there is a documentary,
evidence of attacks on their villages and on their
cities.
-I did not finish yet. We attacked Khankandi because Khankandi
was full of military installations. So, we had to destroy them.
-Civilian houses have been destroyed.
-It happens sometimes during the war. It happens. We are not so
accurate you know if their artillery is just next to the house. It
is not like Ganja when they hit deliberately by ballistic missiles
the civilian compounds where there was no in the radius of maybe
20-30 km a military object.
-But are you troubled by reports of civilian loss of
life?
-Yes, of course. I regret. I regret that it happened, and I
express condolences to all those who lost their relatives. I mean
civilians in Nagorno-Karabakh. But again, taking into account the
scope of the conflict, again saying that every life of the person
is priceless, still, their losses are very low.
-And this shows that we are not fighting against civilians. Do
you know how many civilians they killed during the war of the 90s?
Thousands. Thousands.
-There are concerns…
-The Khojaly genocide. They killed 613 innocent people among
them 63 children and 106 women only because they were Azerbaijanis.
The Khojaly genocide is a well-known documented fact.
-Do you accept that there is a danger now of a
humanitarian catastrophe this winter in Nagorno-Karabakh? You are
closing in. You could be in a position soon to besiege the area.
What is going to be the fate of the civilians inside?
-That’s the question not to me but to Pashinyan to stop, and I
say how to stop.
-But you could cut them off. If they are cut off by your
forces how can they survive?
-We will take care of them. We will take care of them.
Absolutely, no doubt about that. We will provide them with
everything, with food with water with everything. No doubt about
that. And all our, all our military commanders got a direct
instruction from me in the first hours of the conflict that
civilians must be taken care of. Do you know the story about two
elderly persons whom we found in Hadrut? Their relatives, and
military they just left them and (went), ran away. So, one lady and
one gentleman of almost 90 years old. And we brought them here to
Baku. We put them to the hospital, and we surrendered them to
Armenia. But do you know what happened? When that old gentleman was
already on the border in Gazakh far away from here, Armenians
refused to accept him. They said ‘he is ill and he will die soon,
we don’t want him’. You know. That’s what they’ve done and this
person under the care of the Red Cross was put to the hospital and
the lady was surrendered to them and the man, unfortunately, died.
That’s how we treat civilians. Therefore, those who live in
Nagorno-Karabakh now, they can be absolutely sure that we will take
care of them and they will live under the Azerbaijani umbrella much
better.
-But 90 thousand of them approximately have already
fled, they don’t seem to be comforted by these
assurances.
-According to our information, the real population of those who
lived in Nagorno-Karabakh was from 60 to 70 thousand people. All
those figures are highly exaggerated. Therefore, I doubt that 90
thousand could flee, because maximum 70 thousand.
-May I ask you a long-term question President Aliyev?
How do you see the future of the South Caucasus how do you see
peace coming here? I mean do you ever see a day when there will be
peace between Azerbaijan and Armenia?
-Yes, if you ask my position, I think it is possible. But it
depends not only on me, it depends only on the Armenian side. And
during these forty days of the war, on several occasions, I said
that I wish to see the day when three South Caucasian countries
would be working together. As for instance, we do with Georgia. Our
close strategic partner and friend. Look at how many projects we
implemented with them. How close our relations are. They are based
on historical legacy and they are based on pragmatism on the
balance of our interests. So why Armenia became isolated? Because
of the occupation. And if you look at the map, for instance, our
energy and transportation projects, you will see that they bypass
Armenia. The shortest way for us to deliver our resources to the
international markets was through Armenia and we offered them that
in the 1990s. We said, ‘look, liberate the territories let’s build
the pipeline through Armenian territory, and then entering
Nakhchivan and then Türkiye, we will then combine the interests of
all countries’. We will make all countries of the region in a
certain way interdependent. And that will be a guarantee for peace.
They said ‘no’. I offered many times through the Minsk Group
co-chairs, they can approve it, financial assistance, social
programs in Nagorno-Karabakh financing from our budget, if they
liberate territories. They said no. I offered autonomy, the highest
possible autonomy in the world, I offered to Nagorno-Karabakh.
Armenians said no. They said no to everything. So, what happens now
is their fault. By the way, the first president who was overthrown
by the Karabakh clan published an article saying that what
Azerbaijanis are offering now to us they will not offer. That was
in the middle of the 90s.
-And you would accept an autonomous status now for
Nagorno-Karabakh.
-Now, I prefer not to talk about that, because now the situation
on the ground has changed. But I offered this many times and
Armenians rejected it.
-So, now what do you want for
Nagorno-Karabakh?
-Nagorno-Karabakh is part of Azerbaijan. It will be part of
Azerbaijan as any other region of Azerbaijan. If it will depend
again on what will be the Armenian government’s behavior? It is
still not too late for them to be reasonable. It is still not too
late for them to get more on the negotiation table. Because after
we take control of other cities and villages, there will be nothing
to talk about. So, they are losing time. And if they behave
reasonably, we can work on some forms of self-governance. We are
not against it. But they should not violate the territorial
integrity of Azerbaijan. They should be based on the best practice
which European countries, like Italy like Sweden and Finland have
between themselves. Why there should be something different? And
then, of course, the peace will come to the region and I think
that, but frankly speaking, with this prime minister of Armenia I
don’t think that there is any possibility for peace. There must be
a change of government in Armenia, reasonable people must come,
those people which are not affiliated with bloodshed and military
crimes. And then, I think, by joint actions, we can create a new
format of cooperation in the Southern Caucasus among Azerbaijan,
Georgia, and Armenia which used to be in Soviet times. We had
friendly relations, we lived together.
-Is there any compromise that you can offer for the sake
of peace? Is there anything that you can say now you are prepared
to give?
-You know I cannot offer compromise when other side just is not
willing to compromise. During these times Armenian prime minister
also on several occasions was interviewed by foreign journalists,
and he was asked. There was one program on Russian TV, they were
asking same questions to me and to him. And when I was asked about
compromise I said what I am saying to you. When he was asked about
compromise three times he said self-determination for Armenians in
Nagorno-Karabakh. But this is not a compromise. What compromise
they are ready to do? And by the way, today their opportunities to
compromise are shrinking because we are getting those territories
back by force. Our compromise is still on the table. But it is not
100 percent sure that it will be on the table if we take all these
territories back. Then, what will we talk about? So, for the
Armenian prime minister for him, for his own sake, the best thing
is now to listen to me and to say publicly ‘we liberate Aghdam,
Kalbajar, and Lachin’. And we stop, and there will be a ceasefire,
and if they don’t violate it again, and we will come back to those
issues which you refer to-status, autonomy, cultural autonomy,
community, et cetera. But we can be fair and I always fair with our
people. Today situation changed therefore, what I offered to them a
year ago, two years ago maybe is not valid. But it is premature to
talk about it. Let’s see.
-Have you a hope of a peaceful settlement?
-Yes. I have hope because my hope is based now on our success on
the battlefield. My hope is not based on the Armenian constructive
position, because of what we have seen on the battlefield, what we
have seen in Fuzuli, in Jabrayil. We saw that they were not
planning to liberate the territories. They were just lying to us,
they were lying to co-chairs of the Minsk Group, because they
invested so much in these fortifications, that they would have
never, never liberated that. It took us a lot of time to take
control of Fuzuli because of that. And then, when we were moving by
the Araz river towards the state border with Armenia, on several
villages there have been very severe clashes and it took us several
days to break that defense.
-President Aliyev, I wanted to ask you, if I may, a
question on behalf of our Azerbaijan service of BBC and if you
would be happy to reply in your own language? I think they would be
very happy to have that. What kind of future do you see here for
the people of Azerbaijan after this conflict? Some would say here,
and I know you disagree but some would say that this is a society
which still does not have full freedom, full human rights. Do you
see a peace dividend if this conflict finishes? Do you see the
society here being able to move on from the Nagorno-Karabakh issue
which is so consuming what future do you see here?
– I think that the future of our country will be very bright. We
have made great strides in recent years. Today, our country’s
successes in both political and economic spheres are recognized by
international organizations. Great successes have also been
achieved in the international arena. Azerbaijan has become a very
strong country. All issues within the country are being resolved.
Of course, the settlement of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict will
give our country a new lease of life. First of all, people will be
able to return to their ancestral lands and visit the graves of
their relatives. The Azerbaijani state will definitely provide them
with maximum assistance in this. We will rebuild the occupied
lands, build houses, office buildings, schools. Thus, a new era
will begin for our country. This new period will usher in ample
opportunities, and I believe that the positive trends will
intensify not only in the economic sphere but also in the field of
political relations. Azerbaijan will further enhance its role in
the international arena. Respect for Azerbaijan will increase. As a
strong state, we are restoring our territorial integrity, we are
restoring justice and international law. So I am confident that the
future development of our country will be very successful. We have
achieved all our goals so far. We have achieved all the goals I
have stated. The restoration of our territorial integrity and the
return of our lands have been my main tasks as President. I am glad
that I have coped with these tasks with dignity, and we are
returning to our lands thanks to the support, hard work, and
courage of the Azerbaijani people. The selflessness of the
Azerbaijani people shows once again that we are a great nation, we
have demonstrated unity, and this unity will strengthen us even
more, will make our country even stronger.
-Great. President Aliyev thank you so much. You have
been very generous with your time this morning, and we are very
grateful.
-Thank you for your questions.
-Thank you.
